(GIZMODO の元記事)
[00:24]
Bob: I’m Bob Cringely.
16 years ago when I was making my television series Triumph of the Nerds, I interviewed Steve Jobs.
That was in 1995, 10 years earlier Steve had left Apple, following a bruising struggle with John Sculley, the CEO he had brought into the company.
At the time of our interview, Steve was running NeXT, the niche computer company he founded after leaving Apple.
Little did we know was within 18 months he would sell NeXT to Apple, and 6 month later he'd be running the place.
The way things work in television we use only a part of that interview in the series.
And for years we thought the interview was lost for forever, because the master tape were missing while being shipped from London to US in the 1990s.
Then just a few days ago, series director Paul Sen found a VHS copy of that interview in his garage.
There are very few TV interviews with Steve Jobs and almost no good ones.
They rarely show the charisma, candor and vision that this interview does.
And so to honor an amazing man, here’s that interview in its entirety, most of these has never been seen before.
[01:34]
Bob: So I mean, obviously, the Apple II was a terrific success, just incredibly so.
And the company grew like topsy and eventually went public and you guys got really rich.
What's it like to get rich?
Steve: It's very interesting.
I was worth, err, about over a million dollars when I was 23, and over 10 million dollars when I was 24, and over a hundred million dollars when I was 25.
And it wasn't that important, Because I never did it for the money.
I think money is wonderful thing because it enables you to do things, it enables you to invest ideas that don't have a short term payback and things like that.
But especially at that point in my life, it was not the most important thing.
The most important thing was the company, the people, the products we were making, what we were going to enable people do with these products.
So I didn't think about it a great deal and I never sold any stock, and just really believe the company would do very well over the long term.
[02:50]
Steve: You know... one of the things that really hurt Apple was after I left, John Sculley got a very serious “disease”, and that “disease”, I have seen other people get it too, it’s the “disease” of thinking that a really great idea is 90% of the work, and if you just tell all these other people, “here is this great idea!”, then of course they can go off and make it happen.
And the problem with that is that there is just tremendous amount of craftsmanship in between a great idea and a great product.
And as you evolve the great idea, it changes and grows, it never comes out like it starts.
Because you learn a lot more, you get into the subtleties, you also find...
There’s tremendous trade-offs that you have to make, I mean you know there are just certain things you can’t make electrons do, there are certain things you can’t make plastic do, or glass do, and... or factories do, robots do, and you get into all these things, designing a product is keeping 5,000 things in your brain.
These concepts, and fitting them all together in... and kind of continuing to push and fit them together and in new and in different ways to get what you want.
And everyday you discover something new that is new problem or new opportunity to fit these things together a little differently.
It’s that process that is the magic.
So we had a lot of great ideas when we started, but what I always felt that a team of people doing something that’s really believe in is like ...
When I was a young kid, there was a widowed man lived up the street.
And he was in his eighties, he was a little scary looking, and I got to know him a little bit... I think he might pay me for cutting mow his lawn or something...
One day he said, “Come along to my garage, I want to show you something.”
And he pulled out his dusty old rock tumbler, that was a motor and a coffee can and a little band between them, and he said “come out with me”, we went out to the back, and we got some just rocks, some regular old ugly rocks, and we put them in the can with a little bit of liquid and a little bit of grits powder, and we closed the can up and he turned this motor on, and he said, “come back tomorrow”.
And this can was making racket as the stones went around, and I came back the next day, and we opened the can, and we took out these amazingly beautiful polished rocks, err... the same common stones had gone in through rubbing against each other like this, creating a little bit of friction, creating a little bit of noise, had come out these beautiful polished rocks.
And that’s always been in my mind that, my metaphor for a team working really hard on something they're passionate about.
It's that through the team, through that group of incredibly talented people bumping up against each other, having arguments, having fights sometimes, making some noise, and working together they polish each other and they polish the ideas, and what comes out are these really beautiful stones.
So it’s hard to explain, and it’s certainly not the result of one person, I mean people like symbols, so I am the symbol of certain things but it’s really the team effort on the Mac.
Now,
[06:35]
Steve: I... you know, when you get really good people, they know they are really good, and you don’t have to baby people’s ego so much, and what really matters is the work, that everybody knows that and that all that matters is the work, so people are being counted on to do specific pieces of little puzzle.
And the most important thing I think you can do for somebody who’s really good, and who’s really being counted on is to point out to them when their work isn’t good enough, and to do it very clearly and to articulate why, and to get them back on track.
And you need to do it in a way that doesn’t call into question your confidence in their abilities, but... leaves not too much room for interpretation that the work they have done for the particular thing is not good enough… to support the goal of the team.
And that’s a hard thing to do. Err... I always take a very direct approach, so I think if you talk to people who worked with me, err... the really good people have found it beneficial, some people hated it you know, but ...
I am also one of these people, I don’t really care about being right, I just care about success.
So you will find a lot of people that would tell you that I had a very strong opinion, and they present evidence in contrary and 5 minutes later I can change my mind, because I’m like that, I don’t mind being wrong, and I admit that I am wrong a lot, doesn’t really matter to me too much.
What matters to me is that we do the right thing.
[08:30]
Bob: So what’s your vision of 10 years from now, with this technology that you are developing?
Steve: Well, you know I think the internet and the web.
There are two exciting things happening in software and in computing, one is objects, and the other is the web.
The web is incredibly exciting because it is the fulfillment a lot of our dreams, that the computer would ultimately not be primarily a device for computation but metamorphosis into a device for communication, and with the web that’s finally happening.
Secondly it’s exciting because the Microsoft doesn’t know it, and therefore it’s tremendous amount of innovation happening.
So I think the web is going to be profound in what it does to our society, as you know 15% of the goods and services in the US were sold by catalog over TV, all that would go on the web and more, billions and billions... soon tens of billions of dollars of goods and services are going to be sold on the web.
A way to think about it is ultimately direct-to-customer distribution channel, and another way to think about it is the smallest company in the world can look as large as the largest company in the world on the web
So I guess... I think the web, as we look back 10 years back now, the web is going to be the defining technology the defining social moment for computing, I think it’s going to be huge and I think it’s breathed a whole new generation of life into personal computing, I think it’s going to be huge.
[10:12]
Steve: I read an article when I was very young, in the Scientific American, and it measures the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet, so for you know for bear, Chimpanzee, raccoons and birds, and fish, how many kilocalories per kilometer did they spend to move, and humans was measured too.
The condor won, it was the most efficient, and the mankind, the crown of creation, came in with rather unimpressive showing about a 3rd of the way down the list.
But somebody there had the brilliance to test a human riding a bicycle.
Blew away the condor, all the way off the charts.
And I remember this really had an impact on me, I really remember this - humans were tool builders, and we build tools that can dramatically amplify our innate human abilities.
And to me, we actually ran an ad line like this very early at Apple, that the personal computer was the bicycle of mind, and I believe that with every bone in my body, that of all the inventions of humans, the computer is going to rank near, if not at the top, as history unfolds if we look back
And it is the most awesome tool that we ever invented, and I feel incredibly lucky to be at exactly the right place in silicon valley, at exactly the right time, historically where this invention has taken form.
As you know when you set vector off in space, if you can change direction a little bit at the beginning, it’s dramatic when it gets few miles on space.
And I feel we are still really at the beginning of that vector, and if we can nudge it into right directions, it would be a much better thing as it progresses on.
And I look, you know we had the chance to do that a few times, and it brings all of us associated with tremendous satisfaction.
Bob: And how do you know what’s the right direction?
Steve: You know ultimately it comes down to taste, it comes down to taste, it comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done, and try to bring these things in to what you are doing.
Picasso had a saying “good artists copy, great artists steal“, and we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas, and I think part of what made the Macintosh great was that people working on it were musicians and poets and artists, and zoologists and historians, who also happened to be the best computer scientists in the world.
But if it hadn’t been for computer science, these people would have all been doing amazing things in other fields, and they all brought with them, we all brought to this effort a very liberal arts sort of air, a very liberal arts attitude that we want to pull in the best that we saw in other fields into this field, and I don’t think you’ll get that if you are very narrow.
[13:52]
Steve: So I don’t think that most of those really best people that I had worked with, had worked with computers for the sake of working with computers, they work with computers because they are the medium that is best capable of transmitting some feelings that you have, you want to share with other people, does that make any sense to you?
Bob: Oh yeah.
Steve: And before they invented these things all of these people would have done other things, but computers were invented and they did come along, all these people did get interested in school or before school, and say “Hey this is the medium that I think I can really say something in”
[14:44]
In 1996, a year after this interview, Steve Jobs sold NeXT to Apple.
He then took control of his old company at a time when it was 90 days from bankruptcy.
What followed was a corporate renaissance unparalleled in American business history.
With innovative products like iMac, iPod, iTunes, iPhone, iPad and Apple Stores, Jobs turned an almost bankrupt Apple into the most valuable company in America.
As he said in this interview, he took the best and spread it around “so that everybody grows up with better things”.
間違いとかあったらコメント等で教えていただけると幸い。
Q
[00:24]
Bob: I’m Bob Cringely.
16 years ago when I was making my television series Triumph of the Nerds, I interviewed Steve Jobs.
That was in 1995, 10 years earlier Steve had left Apple, following a bruising struggle with John Sculley, the CEO he had brought into the company.
At the time of our interview, Steve was running NeXT, the niche computer company he founded after leaving Apple.
Little did we know was within 18 months he would sell NeXT to Apple, and 6 month later he'd be running the place.
The way things work in television we use only a part of that interview in the series.
And for years we thought the interview was lost for forever, because the master tape were missing while being shipped from London to US in the 1990s.
Then just a few days ago, series director Paul Sen found a VHS copy of that interview in his garage.
There are very few TV interviews with Steve Jobs and almost no good ones.
They rarely show the charisma, candor and vision that this interview does.
And so to honor an amazing man, here’s that interview in its entirety, most of these has never been seen before.
[01:34]
Bob: So I mean, obviously, the Apple II was a terrific success, just incredibly so.
And the company grew like topsy and eventually went public and you guys got really rich.
What's it like to get rich?
Steve: It's very interesting.
I was worth, err, about over a million dollars when I was 23, and over 10 million dollars when I was 24, and over a hundred million dollars when I was 25.
And it wasn't that important, Because I never did it for the money.
I think money is wonderful thing because it enables you to do things, it enables you to invest ideas that don't have a short term payback and things like that.
But especially at that point in my life, it was not the most important thing.
The most important thing was the company, the people, the products we were making, what we were going to enable people do with these products.
So I didn't think about it a great deal and I never sold any stock, and just really believe the company would do very well over the long term.
[02:50]
Steve: You know... one of the things that really hurt Apple was after I left, John Sculley got a very serious “disease”, and that “disease”, I have seen other people get it too, it’s the “disease” of thinking that a really great idea is 90% of the work, and if you just tell all these other people, “here is this great idea!”, then of course they can go off and make it happen.
And the problem with that is that there is just tremendous amount of craftsmanship in between a great idea and a great product.
And as you evolve the great idea, it changes and grows, it never comes out like it starts.
Because you learn a lot more, you get into the subtleties, you also find...
There’s tremendous trade-offs that you have to make, I mean you know there are just certain things you can’t make electrons do, there are certain things you can’t make plastic do, or glass do, and... or factories do, robots do, and you get into all these things, designing a product is keeping 5,000 things in your brain.
These concepts, and fitting them all together in... and kind of continuing to push and fit them together and in new and in different ways to get what you want.
And everyday you discover something new that is new problem or new opportunity to fit these things together a little differently.
It’s that process that is the magic.
So we had a lot of great ideas when we started, but what I always felt that a team of people doing something that’s really believe in is like ...
When I was a young kid, there was a widowed man lived up the street.
And he was in his eighties, he was a little scary looking, and I got to know him a little bit... I think he might pay me for cutting mow his lawn or something...
One day he said, “Come along to my garage, I want to show you something.”
And he pulled out his dusty old rock tumbler, that was a motor and a coffee can and a little band between them, and he said “come out with me”, we went out to the back, and we got some just rocks, some regular old ugly rocks, and we put them in the can with a little bit of liquid and a little bit of grits powder, and we closed the can up and he turned this motor on, and he said, “come back tomorrow”.
And this can was making racket as the stones went around, and I came back the next day, and we opened the can, and we took out these amazingly beautiful polished rocks, err... the same common stones had gone in through rubbing against each other like this, creating a little bit of friction, creating a little bit of noise, had come out these beautiful polished rocks.
And that’s always been in my mind that, my metaphor for a team working really hard on something they're passionate about.
It's that through the team, through that group of incredibly talented people bumping up against each other, having arguments, having fights sometimes, making some noise, and working together they polish each other and they polish the ideas, and what comes out are these really beautiful stones.
So it’s hard to explain, and it’s certainly not the result of one person, I mean people like symbols, so I am the symbol of certain things but it’s really the team effort on the Mac.
Now,
[06:35]
Steve: I... you know, when you get really good people, they know they are really good, and you don’t have to baby people’s ego so much, and what really matters is the work, that everybody knows that and that all that matters is the work, so people are being counted on to do specific pieces of little puzzle.
And the most important thing I think you can do for somebody who’s really good, and who’s really being counted on is to point out to them when their work isn’t good enough, and to do it very clearly and to articulate why, and to get them back on track.
And you need to do it in a way that doesn’t call into question your confidence in their abilities, but... leaves not too much room for interpretation that the work they have done for the particular thing is not good enough… to support the goal of the team.
And that’s a hard thing to do. Err... I always take a very direct approach, so I think if you talk to people who worked with me, err... the really good people have found it beneficial, some people hated it you know, but ...
I am also one of these people, I don’t really care about being right, I just care about success.
So you will find a lot of people that would tell you that I had a very strong opinion, and they present evidence in contrary and 5 minutes later I can change my mind, because I’m like that, I don’t mind being wrong, and I admit that I am wrong a lot, doesn’t really matter to me too much.
What matters to me is that we do the right thing.
[08:30]
Bob: So what’s your vision of 10 years from now, with this technology that you are developing?
Steve: Well, you know I think the internet and the web.
There are two exciting things happening in software and in computing, one is objects, and the other is the web.
The web is incredibly exciting because it is the fulfillment a lot of our dreams, that the computer would ultimately not be primarily a device for computation but metamorphosis into a device for communication, and with the web that’s finally happening.
Secondly it’s exciting because the Microsoft doesn’t know it, and therefore it’s tremendous amount of innovation happening.
So I think the web is going to be profound in what it does to our society, as you know 15% of the goods and services in the US were sold by catalog over TV, all that would go on the web and more, billions and billions... soon tens of billions of dollars of goods and services are going to be sold on the web.
A way to think about it is ultimately direct-to-customer distribution channel, and another way to think about it is the smallest company in the world can look as large as the largest company in the world on the web
So I guess... I think the web, as we look back 10 years back now, the web is going to be the defining technology the defining social moment for computing, I think it’s going to be huge and I think it’s breathed a whole new generation of life into personal computing, I think it’s going to be huge.
[10:12]
Steve: I read an article when I was very young, in the Scientific American, and it measures the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet, so for you know for bear, Chimpanzee, raccoons and birds, and fish, how many kilocalories per kilometer did they spend to move, and humans was measured too.
The condor won, it was the most efficient, and the mankind, the crown of creation, came in with rather unimpressive showing about a 3rd of the way down the list.
But somebody there had the brilliance to test a human riding a bicycle.
Blew away the condor, all the way off the charts.
And I remember this really had an impact on me, I really remember this - humans were tool builders, and we build tools that can dramatically amplify our innate human abilities.
And to me, we actually ran an ad line like this very early at Apple, that the personal computer was the bicycle of mind, and I believe that with every bone in my body, that of all the inventions of humans, the computer is going to rank near, if not at the top, as history unfolds if we look back
And it is the most awesome tool that we ever invented, and I feel incredibly lucky to be at exactly the right place in silicon valley, at exactly the right time, historically where this invention has taken form.
As you know when you set vector off in space, if you can change direction a little bit at the beginning, it’s dramatic when it gets few miles on space.
And I feel we are still really at the beginning of that vector, and if we can nudge it into right directions, it would be a much better thing as it progresses on.
And I look, you know we had the chance to do that a few times, and it brings all of us associated with tremendous satisfaction.
Bob: And how do you know what’s the right direction?
Steve: You know ultimately it comes down to taste, it comes down to taste, it comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done, and try to bring these things in to what you are doing.
Picasso had a saying “good artists copy, great artists steal“, and we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas, and I think part of what made the Macintosh great was that people working on it were musicians and poets and artists, and zoologists and historians, who also happened to be the best computer scientists in the world.
But if it hadn’t been for computer science, these people would have all been doing amazing things in other fields, and they all brought with them, we all brought to this effort a very liberal arts sort of air, a very liberal arts attitude that we want to pull in the best that we saw in other fields into this field, and I don’t think you’ll get that if you are very narrow.
[13:52]
Steve: So I don’t think that most of those really best people that I had worked with, had worked with computers for the sake of working with computers, they work with computers because they are the medium that is best capable of transmitting some feelings that you have, you want to share with other people, does that make any sense to you?
Bob: Oh yeah.
Steve: And before they invented these things all of these people would have done other things, but computers were invented and they did come along, all these people did get interested in school or before school, and say “Hey this is the medium that I think I can really say something in”
[14:44]
In 1996, a year after this interview, Steve Jobs sold NeXT to Apple.
He then took control of his old company at a time when it was 90 days from bankruptcy.
What followed was a corporate renaissance unparalleled in American business history.
With innovative products like iMac, iPod, iTunes, iPhone, iPad and Apple Stores, Jobs turned an almost bankrupt Apple into the most valuable company in America.
As he said in this interview, he took the best and spread it around “so that everybody grows up with better things”.
 |
| Steve Jobs 1955-2011 |
間違いとかあったらコメント等で教えていただけると幸い。
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